Can the Department Chaplain Help Me Even Though I’m Not Religious?

Bart Leger (00:00.782)
Well, Jim, it's great to have you with us today. How about starting by sharing a little bit about yourself outside your professional life?

Jim Bontrager (00:08.083)
Well, thank you, sir. It's a joy to be with you, sir. Well, I just had kind of a unique journey this far. Dropped out of high school, made a big mess of my life, took off hitchhiking around the country, lived with migrant workers, picked oranges, worked on a riverboat up and down the Mississippi River. I won the United States Marine Corps in a $20 bet that I couldn't do as good as a friend of mine. And they give me structure for the first time through a whole series of

Bart Leger (00:30.894)
So let me get this straight. You, you joined the Marines on a bet?

Jim Bontrager (00:33.747)
Yeah, a $20 bet.

Bart Leger (00:36.302)
Ha ha ha.

Jim Bontrager (00:38.579)
Yeah. So anyway, the funny thing got to me at the end of the day, it's one good one good thing they did is give me structure and they tell me a lot of things about self control and doing things like that. And so it served me well in my life. Came home to Indiana. Saw my brother. He was telling me about a place in Buffalo, New York, went there, visited, got stuck in a blizzard, met my wife, Suzy. I came back to Indiana, settled down, worked in construction for 17 years, lamented the fact that I'd messed up my educational opportunities.

But I had self -study, spent a lot of years just studying, reading, learning, growing. And 17 years later, had the opportunity to run a nonprofit organization, work with inner city kids. Through that learned a bunch of more executive skills. One thing led to another ended up to the national board of directors for the fellowship Christian peace officers, USA. And then I got asked to run as vice president of the international conference of police chaplains. Did it to humor the individual asked me somehow I won and here I am president now. So.

To answer your question, your brother, it's been, it's been, it's been what not to do, but I can tell you it's been a rich experience.

Bart Leger (01:44.173)
Well, what do you do in your spare time? I mean, obviously you don't seem to have very much.

Jim Bontrager (01:48.051)
Well, I don't. I love people and I feel like I'm put here and, you know, in the earth to make a difference and try to love on encourage. And that's the heart of chaplaincy to step in the trenches and people's darkest hour and try to be with them to help them to see a way forward that can include growth and encouragement and strength. I had my own personal traumas that went through. My little brother died in my arms in that journey. One of my, our children died in our arms.

And so, you know, that tragedy really taught me a lot about suffering along with other things and, and it turned my heart toward compassion to try to make a difference in other people's lives.

Bart Leger (02:23.534)
Oh, well, thank you for all of that. Well, Jim, you and I have a bit of a history having been a member of the International Conference of Police Chaplains for over 20 years. I know we spent a lot of time together at conferences and we've spoken on the phone quite a few times. So how do you balance? I know the demanding part of your work. How do you balance that with your personal time, your hobbies?

Jim Bontrager (02:50.739)
Right. Well, it's, it's, I'm, I'm, uh, well, it's, you know, you know, as well as I do a lot of it's seasonal. So, you know, thank God that the children were younger at one time and there was a bigger investment there now that they're out of the nest now. And we're starting to get, there's more opportunities to dig in. But as far as balance for me, it's, I just believe that I have a precious gift called life and I believe I only have so much time to use it. And, and, and, and, and the highest, a lot of a way to use it is to try to make a difference in people's lives. So when it comes down to balance for me.

I find joy in what I do. I find great satisfaction when I can be there to encourage others and that's my kind of my spiritual gift is encouragement. And so for me, I do a lot of stuff with my grandkids and we go out and do adventures and things like that. And there's times where we play hard and work hard. So.

Bart Leger (03:37.486)
Well, there you go. That's a good philosophy to have. Now, moving into your professional journey, how did you get started as a chaplain with Elkhart Police Department?

Jim Bontrager (03:48.115)
Well, I back in 19, I think it was 1994, I met a sheriff's deputy and became friends with him. And he started telling me as we became friends, some of what he was going through. And I was in shock. I just couldn't believe I, you know, for some reason I thought cops gave out bicycles at Walmart or something. I don't know. I was, I just didn't catch on. And as he started sharing about the trauma and the drama and the broken world he existed, and I broke my heart. So.

We started an outreach back in 1995 to just have a day to encourage law enforcement officers and just try to love on them. And that's grown to 30 year, 30 year, uh, event now. And so through that, I started to find out just the need and, and, and they started to cut the county sheriff's department started a chaplaincy program. And I thought, gee, that's an interesting mix there. For some reason, I never became a cop at the time. They made me a reserve officer later, but.

I thought that'd be a good mix. And so I applied and they had to change the rules there. And so I came on board as a chaplain and started serving at Elkhart County Sheriff's Department along with Elkhart City at the same time. And then eventually I'm in my 21st year here with Elkhart City. So it was more so just understanding the need, having a heart to do something about it and trying to get the training and the level of understanding and expertise to be an asset.

Bart Leger (04:55.374)
Mm -hmm.

Bart Leger (05:04.526)
Yeah, now you mentioned they made you a reserve officer. Did that make a difference in your rapport with the with the guys and the gals?

Jim Bontrager (05:13.907)
Oh, sure did. I mean, first of all, I had a great report in the first place being a Marine. They, uh, they, they clumped me in, in a sense, but wearing the uniform was an interesting experience. I mean, that was just really a rich experience for me because I got a firsthand chance to just, you know, be parked on the front gates of trial and tribulation and hardship and struggle. And, and, uh, so it was a rich, rich experience where, you know, obviously it gave me greater credibility with those that I was trying to be an encouragement to, but it.

also allowed me to step into their shoes and just to say, Hey, does your own preaching work there, buddy?

Bart Leger (05:44.878)
Yeah. So you're on the street with them as well and running calls too, and all of these things that goes along with that. So you got a little bit of a feel about what the officers and the deputies were going through, right? Okay. How much of an impact and how important do you believe that is for any chaplains that we might have listening for them to really, I guess, be more than an official prayer?

Jim Bontrager (05:56.883)
Sure, sure.

Bart Leger (06:14.254)
But to get in there and learn what everyone's going through.

Jim Bontrager (06:20.563)
Sure, well the bottom line is any kind of wellness program at all is people are not gonna share their deepest, darkest secrets with just anybody. You know, you gotta build relationship. It's all relationship driven. So my counsel to chaplains is you better go in there number one and you better realize you're in the way, you know? Then you're gonna go into an environment where if you're riding with me, you're messing up my front seat. And that means you're a pain in the rear and I just gotta put up with you because I was assigned you. So.

Bart Leger (06:28.366)
Right.

Jim Bontrager (06:46.419)
That's, that's, you know, you better realize that you better be deeply apologetic. The second thing I think it's important is you better learn how to serve and stay out of the way. You know, part of it gets to be, is to learn as much as you can. So you can learn to be an asset. That means you ask good questions. You try to do whatever's told. You just double up your efforts to try to be a blessing in any way you can. Third thing gets to be as confidentiality. You know, people, they're going to bait you. I remember some of the individuals I rode with would tell me just juicy stories about.

Bart Leger (07:08.142)
Mm -hmm.

Jim Bontrager (07:15.155)
things that they may or may not be doing with other people just to see if it got around. And so you're going to get baited because confidentialize everything. And then, you know, the fourth thing gets to be for me then is, is your faith with the little things. My job is not to preach. My job is to live an example. And if I live an example enough, and if I love on you enough, and if I show a consistency there, then you start to experiment with asking me a couple of questions. And then if I take them as delicate gifts that they are and try to answer thoughtful ways to be a blessing to you or encourage you.

then that's gonna open up for more and more. And over time, you eventually become a part of the culture and they look to you for someone who they know cares and who has a level of expertise in relationships and things like that, and who could be there to be an asset.

Bart Leger (07:56.878)
Oh, that's great. Now for those in our audience who might not be familiar, could you explain what a chaplain does, especially within the context of first responders?

Jim Bontrager (08:05.267)
Sure, sure. Well, chaplain, you know, the interesting thing about chaplains, I love talking to especially administrators, what's your initial perception? And the first thing comes as a preacher, you know, or religion. And that's not what we're about. As a law enforcement chaplain, my job is to come in or be a radical lover of humanity. You know, it's interesting, I believe I did some research and the whole term started back in the fourth century with Charlemagne. And Charlemagne was a...

enlisted people who had ecclesiastical expertise and understanding of government in a sense that kind of melded those two together to have an understanding there. And back during the American Revolutionary War, their chaplains had a profound impact. Chaplain Jacob Boucher helped break the grid light at the Constitutional Convention. And it's interesting for a chaplain, then a chaplain is someone who loves people, first of all.

I mean, if you don't, people don't care what you know, do they know what you care? And so police officers read people for a living. And if you're not in there because you purely care, if you're not in there because you want to a love on and make a difference, then they're going to smell it out and you're done. And so you got to be a radical lover of humanity. I think the other thing in that is to, to just really realize that, you know, there's so much more that could happen. You know, when I look at evil, we, we, we talk about the spiritual dimension, Bart.

I think people realize they don't realize what evil is. Evil, evil primary occupies my thought life. And so I use the illustration all the time just to take a little rabbit trail to illustrate a point is, you know, I asked police officers on a regular basis. You remember you began this job. You would have done it for free. I mean, you got to be kidding me. I mean, you're out there going to high speed and they all smile. Well, fast forward 16 .7 years later, the average cop committed suicide. You know, and the average cop who committed suicide is when they committed it in their career.

And so I look back and I say, do you have the same type of clientele at the beginning that you had down the road, the same mad, sad and bad people, the same domestics, all that stuff that you have down the road? Sure you do. Do you have the same lesson, perfect leadership? Sure you do. Well, how can I with one set of circumstances have more fun? It should be legal. And 16 .7 years later, I'm eating a gun with the same circumstances. Well, I'll tell you what, it's evil. Evil gets into your head and starts working on your mind to sit here and think it's all broke. See, when I'm a rookie cop, I don't care about the chief or the sheriff. I just.

Jim Bontrager (10:23.219)
Was that call for you? Yes, stupid, that call was for you. You know, it's real simple because I'm trying to take my sphere of influence and I'm just trying to do what I'm assigned and I'm finding great during the journey. But little by little, evil gets you upset about the things you have no control of. They could be people and what they're doing, leadership, frustrations that are happening in other parts of the country. And so the goal there is to get you upset about the things you have no control over till it starts to affect the things you do. And then eventually you start to get to the point where you become more and more cynical.

If I'm more cynical, then I have less influence at home, less influence at the station. And it snowballs from there. And next thing you know, if I'm not careful, my mind's taken out and I'm to the point where I think it's all one big broken felony and I lost my hope.

Bart Leger (11:03.022)
Yeah, we start detaching, begin to start avoiding and, and before we know it, we've pretty well detached from, from, from those, those things that support and gird up our life.

Jim Bontrager (11:13.491)
Exactly. Especially when it comes to home life, you know, and if you think about the unique challenges, you know, my expertise is law enforcement. I got a brother and a fireman. I give him a rough time. But, you know, the big thing gets to be at home life. I mean, some of the unique challenges against law enforcement families, they don't realize it there because in the police world, I'm my primary tool of investigation is to assume that you're all not telling me the truth until I can figure out who is.

Bart Leger (11:22.67)
Hahaha.

Bart Leger (11:39.47)
That sounds just like a cop, doesn't it?

Jim Bontrager (11:39.571)
Well, you have to go into a position they're assuming that you're all liars until I know otherwise. Well, guess what? If you're not careful, there's a deviation happens there. You know, you can look at hyper vigilance and view in the world from a threat based perspective. You know, we know a lot of the studies when it comes to, you know, adrenaline response, one twelfth of a second, you're getting dumps of fight, flight or freeze, but I'm not freezing. I'm not flight. And so fighting said, well, you guess what? I have a parasympathetic nervous system so that I got all those toxic chemicals dumped inside me. I don't burn them off.

I go home, I'm tired, detached, isolated, apathetic, you know, and then home life starts going south. And we just add to that all the other frustrations. 53 % of all cops get less than a six half hour sleep. You know, we can start looking at frustrations, media, critical incidents. You know, why is it as a first responder that everywhere I go throughout town, I can look and say, oh, I remember that building. That's where so -and -so killed himself. That's where those kids burn up in a fire. That's where that happened. Why are those things indelibly imprinted in my mind? And so, you know, we take that with the media and we...

Bart Leger (12:28.174)
Mm -hmm.

Jim Bontrager (12:37.555)
start combining that with stress and unhealthy coping mechanisms. We started looking at alcohol and alcohol came me from going into deep REM sleep where I process critical incidents and it all has a big snowball effect if it's not understood, it starts eating up your home life and your mental health.

Bart Leger (12:53.262)
Yeah, well, even we ourselves, sometimes we don't tell ourselves the truth and sometimes we don't tell one another the truth. Even those that you know will have your back and would literally give up their life for a brother or sister officer. But yet when we see one of our brother or sister officers or even any other first responders in trouble and we ask, how are you doing? What's the typical answer we get? I'm good. I'm okay. I'm fine.

Jim Bontrager (13:19.251)
Yeah, doing great. Say, I like I like I think sometimes we have to rephrase, especially in the police world, we have to rephrase things. This is the way I like the approach of Barta. Hopefully it's a tool to encouragement. I say, I said, let me ask you this. I said, how many of you take a martial arts and definitely there's a couple of individuals in there when I'm teaching a class. And I said, OK, I said, so we had we had a private instructor for Jiu Jitsu for a year for our family. So I've dabbled in martial arts over the years. And so.

Bart Leger (13:36.206)
Mm -hmm.

Jim Bontrager (13:46.259)
I said my son Curtis at the time is 16. So Curtis takes my back. He's trying to choke me out. I said, would I be stronger stronger by for some reason? I think my 16 year old choking me out is a good idea. But anyway, for what I'd be stronger by saying a go get some help on how to not give up my back or would it be B to say it stinks to be me? Well, everybody will say a and I'll say, OK, why is it then is someone who is going through stuff? Do you think it's somehow strength by not dealing with it when it's really weakness?

real warriors take their strength, their weaknesses, somebody who can help make it a strength and they grow and learn. And so the point gets to be as we get these Jedi mind tricks from evil, you know, if I stink at shooting, there's nothing laudable about that. What I do is I go to somebody who could teach me some skills and it's the same thing being a first responder. There's no weakness in getting tips on how to have a better marriage or how to have a stronger mental health or stuff like that because you're seeing stuff no one should see. And so we got to get rid of the stigma to turn around and say, listen,

Bart Leger (14:19.726)
Mm -hmm.

Bart Leger (14:35.47)
Mm -hmm.

Bart Leger (14:39.598)
Mm -hmm.

Jim Bontrager (14:42.579)
You know what, a part of this is embracing the suck, helping it to grow, teach me skills, making me more compassionate, help me to be a greater lover of humanity, because that may be the reason I got the job in the first place, is to make a difference. And on the other side of all that, there's a redemptive factor of all the trials and tribulations that could help you to care more.

Bart Leger (14:58.926)
Hmm. Yeah. Well, why, why do you think, I mean, I remember being on the road, doing business checks and find a, find an unlocked door. What's the first thing went in my mind and call for backup before we clear. Why, why do you think that's not the case with, with everything else? I mean, we're, we're, we're quick to call for backup when we're working, but yet when it comes to personal stuff, why do you think that's so difficult for us?

Jim Bontrager (15:22.963)
Right. Well, I think there's a couple of things. I think, first of all, the perception that somehow there's weakness in it when it's not weakness. I mean, to grow and learn is strength. That's the beautiful thing about it. You know, you know, I I use an illustration sometimes. I ask field training officers, FTOs. I said, you know, imagine this. You got this rookie cop who knows everything and you're trying to take this knucklehead and teach him. But it doesn't matter what you do. He.

Bart Leger (15:31.95)
Hmm.

Jim Bontrager (15:50.291)
He knows everything. And so you finally come down to the point where you only got two options. What are they? They said, well, we could farm. Yeah. Or the second thing gets to be is sometimes we'll let him get set up in the hopes that he'll build some humility and grow. Right. You know, well, welcome to God's work in our life. You know, the reality gets to be sometimes is we have to have the humility to want to learn and grow. And that's a hard thing sometimes for us. And I'm here to tell you right now, as a broken individual has been through a lot of stuff that.

Bart Leger (16:01.518)
Mm -hmm. Right.

Jim Bontrager (16:17.363)
You know, I can give you one illustration. We lost a child back in 2003. A cute little guy was born, had cold black eyes. Seemed to be normal at first. Two little, or two of my girls were there and they were loving on him and they came to check his oxygen level, thought the machine was broke, took him in there. Didn't come back for a long time. Finally he came back and he said, there's something wrong with your son. We want to take him to a bigger hospital. So we give him permission. My wife's still going through the birth process. The next day they call us at Riley's Children's Hospital down in Indianapolis, two and a half hours away.

Need you down here right away. I know it's bad. We get there. They said normally this is a place of miracles and so You know your child has an inoperable heart condition There's nothing we can do we can't get there from here because there's no flap between left to right side of the heart that seals off normally and so the most merciful thing to do is unplug him let him die in your arms. Well, that was devastating, especially my wife who carried him, you know, and so we unplug him of course singing asking God to help us all that stuff and and

We get on the other side of that seven years later, African -American mother, Sid's death, Elkhart General Hospital. She's weeping, wailing, crying on the floor. No one can just encourage her. She's just struggling bad. They call me in there. I get on my knees, I tell her my story, and she leaves with me. Why? Because I got the t -shirt. And so the point gets to be is, I think we have to just change the way we look at trials and tribulations. Average cop in a mid -sized agency, according to...

2005 study I saw has 188 critical incidents. And those are significant events. Most individuals with a bad life don't have anywhere close to that. And so we got to normalize the fact at the beginning that you're going to go through stuff. We're going to be there with you and support you. And then we get the older veterans involved with the younger ones. We'll see a lot of good things happen because there's a redemptive factor in the older guys and the young ones. We build a culture of normalcy where we process stuff. That's what we do. You know, we just support each other.

Bart Leger (17:47.182)
Mm -hmm.

Bart Leger (18:08.494)
Yeah. Well, like I heard a retired police sergeant say, um, you know, our bodies get assaulted maybe a few times in our career, uh, but our minds get assaulted every single day.

Jim Bontrager (18:20.627)
Yes, exactly, exactly.

Bart Leger (18:22.158)
Now, moving on to the importance of chaplaincy, why do you believe having chaplains available for first responders would be important?

Jim Bontrager (18:32.147)
Well, I think that we've got to back up and say, what are we trying to achieve? My assumption is we're all trying to achieve a level of healthy living and relationships in this profession so that you can retire in a wholesome way and have your family intact. That's my assumption. So the question is, what's the biggest challenge to that? The biggest challenge is relationship. It's trust. And so some of the challenges we have when we look at our options as mental health professionals,

Bart Leger (18:49.614)
Right.

Jim Bontrager (18:59.443)
Mental health professionals can be a tremendous asset, but if they're not invented or built relationships or if they haven't have some kind of street credibility, then there's a challenge there to a certain degree. We can look at peer support. Peer support is another great tool if it's, you know, it works right. But if I wasn't a peer officer and cared about you before that, then, you know, just because I'm trained doesn't mean anything. So, you know, once again, there's a level of effectiveness. But a chaplain, the beautiful thing about it, number one is they don't cost you anything. Most chaplains serve for free. You know, so in.

Bart Leger (19:27.63)
Right.

Jim Bontrager (19:28.403)
You know, that's a big deal. The second thing gets to be as if they're trained properly, which is what our organization's all about, then they can learn how to connect and have meaningful relationships and show how to show sincere care and concern. And if they're educated properly, then they're going to start to understand the things they're up against. And through that relationship there and spending time and ride alongs, spending time going out there and station visits, stuff like that can build the relationships necessary.

And then if you're faithful to little things, you'd be faithful much and trying to bring around encouragement, hope and strength like that. And so for me, a chaplain is a lover of humanity that if they operate right, come in there. I use it a vulture ministry, Bart. I say my job is to go up in the tree and sit there like a vulture, wait for a disaster, swoop down, love on them and go back in a tree and shut up until they call me back. And if I keep doing that consistently, eventually you start looking for me and then they'll invite me to come down to situations. And eventually they start seeing the value of it.

Bart Leger (20:06.734)
the

Jim Bontrager (20:22.451)
And then wonderful things were happening. I was just at a conference up in Wisconsin, our regional training seminar, and there's two individuals there who started taking chaplains as part of their peer support program. And they had chaplains that just made death notifications part of that, but they got one of them engaged in their peer support. And he said, this is the most revolutionary thing I saw is how this guy transformed it. And he became such an integral part of our peer support unit because he knows how to talk to people because he has experience from his pastoral ministry or.

or your rabbinical ministry or whatever, you know. And because they has experience, then guess what? He knows how to talk to people. He knows how to build relationships. He understands relationships. And they said, he's such an integral part of a rock of what all we're doing right now that I couldn't believe how much we missed him. You know, we didn't realize what we had in our possession there, you know.

Bart Leger (21:09.358)
Now, Jim, one of the concerns that often arises is whether non -religious first responders or someone said, you know what, I'm not a person of faith. One concern is how can a person like that benefit from chaplain services? How would you address that?

Jim Bontrager (21:25.939)
Sure. Well, I think it depends on the chaplain. If the chaplain is doing the right job, they're loving on anyone. My job is to go in the community of Al -Qa 'ar and love on as many people as I, I don't care what your religious background, I don't care. I don't care what your personal preferences are as far as anything, you know? What would I do? Well, I shouldn't say that, but you know, as far as anything legal, you know, my job is to go in there and love on you and get you support. So I would say that, you know, if you're a good chaplain, you know, we have people who are atheists, we have people that are...

Bart Leger (21:40.59)
Mm -hmm.

Jim Bontrager (21:53.107)
you know, non -religious and I love them the same way I do anyone else. And so I'm not here to shove anything down your throat. I'm here to say, listen, I care about you. You're doing an abnormal job. There's junk that comes our way and I want to do what I can to lift the burden. And I think if you do that, you know, that credibility will carry you through that whole thing. And you have a good relationship regardless of their faith tradition or like their own.

Bart Leger (22:06.062)
Mm -hmm.

Bart Leger (22:14.126)
Could you provide, maybe give us an example of how you supported individuals who may not consider themselves religious, or maybe even someone from a different faith tradition? How would, how have you done it and supported them, maybe in a practical way, without being religious, if you will?

Jim Bontrager (22:23.955)
Sure.

Sure.

Well, sure. Well, we started out, first of all, in our organization, we started doing some stuff back in 2008. So we started saying, listen, ounce of prevention is worth a bond of cure. So with the chief's permission here is over the year that we've we start out with new hires. And so we have a full day with them as new hires. That's a regular part of it. And in that, we just talk about resiliency principles of wellness practice and things like that. It's not overly religious. It's just about.

nuts and bolts stuff you're going to face and how to overcome it. And so we have a spouse Academy as well. So we try to work with spouses, significant others, and we try to let them know that, listen, two of you guys on the same page approaching this stuff is going to, you know, instead of eating each other for lunch, we want to be here for you to encourage you. So a part of that is through all critical incidents. You know, we, like many chaplains are trained in critical stress, debriefing. We're a part of the debriefing team, all that stuff. We're involved in and just a little bit of everything we do there.

And so that's one way is just in a neutral sense to support them in a general sense. But sometimes it can be more in a practical way. So if I'm out on a call and I find I have a Muslim or I have a Jewish member of the community, my job is to get them support. You know, who would you like? Who can I get in the trenches with you? And so my job is to sacrificially provide anybody that can be in support to them and encourage them and to love on them. And even though I can check up on them and follow up with them and let them know that, you know, my heart goes out to them and I don't have to do that with a

Bart Leger (23:41.262)
Mm -hmm.

Jim Bontrager (23:53.971)
overtly religious overtones.

Bart Leger (23:56.366)
So sometimes you can just be a liaison and link them up with with some other type of support, right?

Jim Bontrager (24:03.059)
Oh, exactly. Exactly. I think an effective chaplain has a toolbox of community members that can meet the various community members needs. One size doesn't fit all. You know, for me, I'm personally the Christian tradition, but at the end of the day, you know, my mandate is to love people. And so if there's if you know, if I can find out what your needs are and connect your needs with, you know, what the greatest support will be there, then it's not for me to choose that support. It's for me to facilitate it.

Bart Leger (24:23.086)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Bart Leger (24:28.366)
Right. I know there've been times when, you know, we come across someone who might be a street person or come across someone, a single mom who has a financial issue. There's no food in the cabinet. I've been there on calls where literally there was no food left. And very often an officer would go to the chaplain and say, chaplain, look, I came across this mom or I came across this person. Is there anything we can do? Well, most chaplains will have a...

a ton of resources they can go to and before you know it, that person is being taken care of. And that kind of lifts that load off of that first responder who really still cares about those they're serving.

Jim Bontrager (25:09.747)
No, exactly. That's a great point. I think an effective chaplain is also a liaison to community resources, to your point. I think the beautiful thing is, is we have, in this case, law enforcement officers on the front lines, and they're interfacing with a number of individuals of various levels of need or need encouragement in some kind of way. And I think sometimes to really have those resources available where you can help meet legitimate need is...

It becomes a win -win situation, not only for the officer and the chaplain team, but also for the community.

Bart Leger (25:40.75)
Yeah, and I know we mentioned community resources, but how else can our first responders and other frontline professionals best utilize the Chaplain service, maybe whether it's personal or work -related?

Jim Bontrager (25:53.587)
Right. Well, I think, you know, a number of things that chaplains do. First of all, in our agency, our chaplains make death notifications. That's one of the most difficult, difficult callings when somebody dies or we have to respond to someone who died. We have to make notifications. Someone died in some context that, you know, we go with that. We're specifically trained. So we go with the officers to make knock on those doors and we're trained how to be there to bring comfort and backup and things like that. We're out there also for critical incidents. So if there's a.

something happens in there that they make us a part of the response team that comes out there to try to love and encourage others, whether it be homicides or this or that or anything else. When we go out there and I think as chaplains, we obviously do community events and things like that. I think also it's to educate the community on the beauty of what law enforcement does or first responders do because there's often misunderstanding. We don't understand the unique challenges and how as a community we can better support them.

You know, that's a big aspect and, and, you know, the educational component, I think is huge. And so, uh, you know, to me, there's a number of things you can do. We can also be there for individuals. So we make hospital visits. So, you know, be there for families going through crisis struggles, new births, things like that. You know, those are opportunities where we can be there. Uh, we can be out there to answer questions. You know, I personally have 38 years of marriage and so I learned a couple of things the hard way. And so if I can be an encouragement that, uh,

Bart Leger (27:05.166)
Mm -hmm.

Jim Bontrager (27:15.187)
We had nine children and so, uh, you know, that's a big family. And so I learned a lot about parenting. And so, you know, depending on your level of expertise, uh, some of, uh, one of our, one of our, um, chaplains also has a degree in family counseling. And so, you know, sometimes you have a whole smorgasbord of options right there that can build a relationship and serve in a bunch of different ways. And if you have a diverse chaplain platform, then, you know, we have everybody with different levels of expertise that can help meet whatever the need is and provide a smorgasbord options for those who want to.

pick and choose because they may not like me because I'm in your face too much or something. So.

Bart Leger (27:46.702)
Not a marine in your face, right? You know, you mentioned all these resources and all the things the chaplain can do. And I remember some of our scenes when you got whaling families or the families are bugging you all the time. And not that it's a bad thing, but they want to know what's going on and how long their family member is going to be lying there before they're taken away or why aren't you covering them up? And...

Jim Bontrager (27:50.099)
Yeah, yeah.

Bart Leger (28:15.662)
quite often, I would hear, oh, the chaplain's here, and chaplain, can you take care of this family? And there was a big sigh of relief. It was like a weight was taken off their shoulders when the chaplain gets on the scene, kind of allows them to do their job without having to be always dealing with the other things.

Jim Bontrager (28:31.827)
All right.

Jim Bontrager (28:38.643)
That's a really valid point Bart. That ministry of presence is everything. I know for instance in the DA, if I know police process there, I can explain to the family to say, listen, our job is just to keep the scene as it is till the medical examiner or the coroner can come in and just get you some answers as a family. And we're here to answer any questions you have, but try to help you out to understand process. We might need to know, we're gonna need to know a funeral home here if you have someone you prefer, if the coroner doesn't do an autopsy.

Bart Leger (28:56.622)
Mm -hmm.

Jim Bontrager (29:07.475)
And it's to be there to explain police process. I think the other point you make, well, is there too, as a police officer, I can't let my emotions engage too much because I'll be destroyed. There's so much hardship, trials and tribulations that if I can hand someone over to Chaplin who cares about them, and I know that they're they're being good, taking care of that allows me to just deal with the, you know, the investigation I'm conducting or whatever else. And that's just a liberating, freeing thing. And I've heard that same thing over and over again. It's like, happy when you came in, you know, it's going to be all right.

Bart Leger (29:34.926)
Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. Good. It's a good point. I can't afford to feel right now. Uh, I've got a job to do. Uh, so that's really, really, really important. You mentioned confidentiality earlier. Uh, and I know that for, for many of us, letting someone know that we're, we're having trouble dealing with something is, could be a sign of weakness. And, you know, obviously we don't want anyone else in the apartment to know about it. Uh, how would.

Jim Bontrager (29:42.099)
Right.

Bart Leger (30:04.366)
How would you ensure the privacy and the trust of those who come to you for support?

Jim Bontrager (30:09.203)
Well, the first thing has to be the environment, obviously. So, you know, if I'm talking to somebody about a confidential matter, I want to obviously make sure other people are not there, you know, but the big thing gets to be is just to let them know, you know, provided we're not dealing with any legal issues, which is a separate entity. But, you know, I think the big thing gets to be is just to take some neutral place where they could let their hair down in a sense, because if I'm wearing my uniform, I'm on the job. That's, you know, one set of circumstances. If it's something serious and we can meet afterwards, we can just have a talk over a cup of coffee or.

something else or somewhere private or come over to my house or whatever the deal gets to be. And I think it's just just encourage them to let them know that it's like I share my stories. You know what? I think one of the things that makes it effective is if I model before them just my own brokenness and things I've been through. And that's not a put down. That's just, you know, it's not normal to go through and see what police officers have to see. You know, I think and you as well. You can look back in your calls as a police officer and and and and.

And you can look at, you know, a mother, in my instance, you know, killing three kids and, you know, officers responding to that or severely abused stuff or some of the calls that I don't even want to describe here because they're so horrible. You know, no one should have to deal with that. And just to say it's OK.

It's okay, brother. It's okay, sister. I care about you, you know, and here, you know, process and just help them understand the healthy part of talking about things because, you know, as well as I do just the way our brain functions are designed and, and process and stuff in a healthy way and critical incidents often, often have some emotional element to them that really drives home the, you know, the challenge here. And so to normalize that and to...

help liberate and port towards resources too, which might include EMDR or this or that, or, you know, some other more advanced stuff, you know, there's, there's just a whole smorgasbord options here.

Bart Leger (31:53.166)
Yeah, I mean, the reality is none of us are wired to experience, to see, to hear, to smell all the things that a first responder will have to deal with. I mean, I can look back and think of all of those who were with me in the academy and who flamed out because they either didn't ask for the support or whatever reason, just...

didn't make it. I remember some incidents in particular, similar to the case that you're talking about. And this was three years after we got out of the Academy and we're on the same call. And he said, dude, I can't handle this. And he quit. He quit. Now, with proper support, he came back two years later and he's still on the job. That's been over 20 years ago. So there is hope.

Jim Bontrager (32:51.411)
Well, there is. And I think, you know, like you said, we've we'd really drive home is the relationship factor. You know, if if if you know your stuff and and you get to be at the beginning of the whole experience where they say, hey, it's all right. This guy's a resource or this woman's a resource in our agency as a chaplain. And they know their stuff they've taken. You know, I have over a thousand hours training myself just on, you know, a lot of it, my own dime here. And so most chaplains really, you know, the International Conference of Police Chapman's trainings are bread and butter. That's.

what we really try to work on there. But the more you can educate yourself, the more you can understand that the better relationships you have there, then what you suggest is add street cred and credibility there, which deepens opportunity, which allows you to share even more. And so it's normal in our agency to process a lot of stuff with someone you know cares. It's not a weakness. It's just a normal part of doing business. It's like no big deal. We've taken away any of the concerns that people have. So.

Bart Leger (33:47.31)
And I know I can hear the thought process of some of our listeners. Yeah, but you don't know our chaplain. Our chaplain, well, I've heard it said our chaplain sucks either because they're never around or because they're a wannabe or whatever. What advice would you give to a first responder who's in that situation where for whatever reason they don't think they can trust their chaplain?

Jim Bontrager (33:55.667)
Well.

Jim Bontrager (34:01.843)
Right.

Bart Leger (34:17.102)
What would you say to them?

Jim Bontrager (34:17.363)
Sure. Well, I'd tell them, get rid of them. I mean, I don't know, but it's important. It isn't about the chaplaincy. And your point's well taken there. I've you know, I get a chance to travel around the country and share and things like that. And that becomes one of the big things. OK, my chaplain either betray trust. The minute you betray trust, you're done. You should just leave. It's over with, you know. But the second thing gets to be is if you signed up for chaplaincy and you're not around, then you do no good either.

Bart Leger (34:20.206)
There you go. There you go.

Bart Leger (34:36.782)
Oh yeah.

Jim Bontrager (34:45.811)
you're just taking up ground there for someone who could come in and do a good job. So either you have a calling as a chaplain or not. At our agency, we have a minimum time commitment a month. So I really encourage those who have chaplain programs to just get with us at the International Conference of Police Chaplains. We'll help give you some criteria to help hold people accountable. And so in our agency, we have a minimum eight hours a month you have to contribute. So if you're not doing it, then go do something else.

Bart Leger (34:50.99)
Mm -hmm.

Bart Leger (35:11.854)
right right

Jim Bontrager (35:11.891)
And in that there's a certain level of training you have to have to make sure you learn how to interact with the culture and not mess it up. And if, you know, we've had to fire people because they want to wear their jackets, try to get free meals or something else. And unfortunately, there's bad chaplains like they're bad everything else. And so don't settle for anything less than excellence and let us know we can help you get a successful chaplain program because it can make all the difference.

Bart Leger (35:33.038)
Well, good. I'm glad you bring that up because given the stressful nature of first responder work, what advice would you have for departments that that want to better support their their personnel's mental, emotional and spiritual well -being? And they're saying, you know what? We don't have a chaplains program. What would you recommend they they do to begin that process?

Jim Bontrager (35:52.339)
Sure. Well, I'd invite you to get ahold of me. I'm sure you'll have my contact information, but get ahold of us as an organization because, you know, I look at what a chaplain can do and in our world, it's a chaplain can educate and help new hires and spouses. We just got done with a three week spouse Academy here last week. And so in that we just help educate spouses and significant others and all that stuff, you know, there for critical incidents, obviously, you know, and, and, and, and then going through and working with peer support. So we have a peer support team and we also have.

social workers and it's a comprehensive plan here. So the point gets to be at the end of the day as chaplains can be an integral part of an overall wellness program. So my encouragement would be to, you know, we have members of our organization you can connect with, they can help give you ideas. We can help you to try to find a process to find motivated clergy in the community that might have their hearts in the right place in the venom. And then we can help you with the training process to.

Bart Leger (36:42.862)
Mm -hmm.

Jim Bontrager (36:46.163)
you know, come up to speed to see what an effective chaplain does, and then also a number of options on what they may fulfill for your agency. One size doesn't fit all, you know, that's, you know, the beautiful thing about the International Conference of Police Chaplains is you have 23 hundred chaplains of 14 nations, and they all bring a different level of expertise, a different level of giftings and focus, and they become a tremendous resource to feed off of, to say, okay, our department has this need, do you have any ideas on how we can help best meet it? And then we can give you a whole group of individuals can help you to...

Bart Leger (36:52.558)
Okay.

Jim Bontrager (37:15.059)
find new ways around old problems and how to make an effective chaplaincy program or make a difference.

Bart Leger (37:20.75)
Okay. Now for those in other disciplines, for fire, for EMS, hospitals, what... There are other organizations that train chaplains for those organizations as well, correct?

Jim Bontrager (37:34.899)
Yeah, absolutely. Think of the Internet. Internet. I can't remember what the fire there's a fire. Yeah, that's what it is. Fire job. I was going to say that, but I'm like, yeah, but you know, you have that. It just Google it. Chaplaincy. And there's a lot of there's a lot of organizations doing wonderful work and get first responders and support them. And so, you know, I'd highly encourage that because chaplains are time tested. They've been around like a sense of the fourth century and there's a.

Bart Leger (37:40.43)
Federation of Archaplains.

Hahaha.

Jim Bontrager (38:01.683)
lot of wonderful things happen and if they're doing it right then they're out there trying to help officers not only understand how to do the job but the why is it doing the job you know.

Bart Leger (38:09.646)
Oh, good. Now, Jim, before we wrap up, is there a particular message or a piece of advice that you'd like to share with our first responder audience or other frontline professionals today?

Jim Bontrager (38:20.019)
Sure. Well, especially those of you law enforcement officers and the rest of you, I apologize. I believe this with all my heart as well. But, you know, it's interesting if you walk into Washington, go into Washington, D .C., go into the Jefferson Memorial, you look off into one of the limestone panels there, you'll find these familiar words. And it's from our second paragraph, the Declaration of Independence. It says, we hold these truths to be self -evident, that all men are created equal, that they're endowed by the creator with certain inalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

that to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men driving their just powers from the consent of the governed. And if you take those simple words from that second paragraph, the declaration of penance says in American system, there's a conviction that rights come from God, not from government, that there's a threat to those rights. Those tasked with addressing a threat are a group called civil government. Any enforcement mechanism, civil government, it's who? It's law enforcement. So I think the big thing gets to be is what's the nature of the threat.

You know, if you posit the fact that America was built on a conviction that a supernatural being gave rights, might there be such a thing as evil trying to take those rights away and destroy them? I'm here to tell you right now, I believe that with all my heart. And I want to encourage you as a law enforcement officer, especially all of you have taken oath to the Constitution. But you have a you have a God given mission here and you're fighting against an evil that you may not appreciate. And one thing that I think a chaplain can help with is when given permission is to understand.

What does it really mean in the spiritual nature? Spiritual nature is about your mindset and how your mindset precedes your actions and how to turn around and learn how to see things in a proper context to turn around and be victoriously. And, you know, this nation was founded on a, it's interesting, Edmund Burke. And if, can you give me five minutes? I don't want to go off a rabbit trail here. Give me five more, okay? So Edmund Burke is a contemporary of the founding fathers. And he said this, he said, men are qualified for civil liberty.

Bart Leger (40:06.318)
Go for it, go for it, no.

Jim Bontrager (40:14.963)
an exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon our own appetites. He says society cannot exist unless the controlling power upon a well -in -appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. He said it's ordained the eternal constitution of things, and men of intemperate minds cannot be free, their passions from their fetters. And what was he saying? He was saying that really freedom is an internal mechanism to the degree that a man or woman is self -governing is the degree that we don't need outside laws to contain or waver behavior.

And our system was built on a Judeo -Christian heritage. And I'm not trying to shove that down your throat. I'm trying to give you some understanding here. And Paul, the apostle Paul, summed that up in Romans 13, verses eight through 10. He said, all the commandments are summed up in this one rule, one simple rule. Love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore, love is the fulfillment of law. And that the highest ideal, according to the apostle Paul, the highest ideal, not only in that, in Judaism and Leviticus 19, 18, I believe it is,

Or even if you look at Islam, where a true Muslim is told in Islam is one who does no harm with his mouth or his hands. And so if we can just celebrate the fact that, you know what, being other oriented is the heart of liberty. And people as have choice sometimes make bad choices. And the role of law enforcement is to step into the bad choices, take people out of community, put them in a timeout, so to speak, so they can either figure it out or get fixed or something. And for you to go out there on a regular basis to stand behalf of other.

citizens and defend their God given rights. For you go out there sacrificially in a way that shows a love of others is really reflective of who God is. You know, I just love, I love if you look and close out with this here, just so I can be guilty of being a chapel with a little bit of spiritual things here. But you know, it's interesting when you look that you can look in descriptions of God, according to that worldview. And it says in Exodus 15, three, the Lord's a warrior. And I love what Chester said. Chester said, he said,

The true warrior fights not because he hates what's in front of him, because he loves what's behind him. I believe they'll go out there in the name of love is a big, big deal. And he said he's strong and mighty in battle. He's a father to the fatherless, a defender of widows. Proverbs 6, 17 through 19 says he hates lying hands and hands that shun innocent blood and feet that are quick to rush to evil. A false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among his brothers. That I the Lord love justice. I hate robbery and iniquity. Isaiah 60 verse five.

Jim Bontrager (42:34.291)
And so if you look at those attributes, they're reflective that your job as a law enforcement officer reflects heaven. And there's a God of love who put people there to love each other, their choices sometimes cause them to be unloving. Your job as a cop is to represent him and taking them off the street to make our community safe. And it's a heaven sent mission. I want to encourage you with all my heart that you're put here for such a time as this and stay in the fight. There are answers, but you just, uh, you got to step out there and seek them out. And, uh, I just pray God's richest blessings upon you. Cause you're.

You're doing a noble job with a noble calling.

Bart Leger (43:05.422)
Oh, profound words, Jim. Thank you very much for being with us today. I appreciate your time with us. I know you're a busy, busy man. And finally, where can our listeners learn more about your work or get in touch if they're interested in exploring chaplaincy services?

Jim Bontrager (43:20.531)
Excellent. So it's our website is www .ICPC, the number four cops .org. So ICPC for cops .org. Please send us a contact us there and you can find also at info at ICPC for cops .org. And then you're welcome Bart to put my contact information. We'd be an encouragement, but I appreciate the time, brother. I appreciate all you've done. I just wanted to call you out in front of everybody here.

As a member of our organization for those 20 plus years, brother, you've always been a blessing. When I was a young chaplain coming up through the ranks, your training and your teaching there did much to be an encouragement to me, brother. And I'm rejoicing what you're doing and thank you for all you continue to do. And I wish you the very best, brother.

Bart Leger (44:06.446)
Well, thank you. Thank you very much. And I appreciate you being with us. Uh, and I trust you have a great rest of your day. Uh, before we go, uh, a little bit of a personal question. What are you going to do today to take care of yourself? Something fun.

Jim Bontrager (44:20.755)
What am I gonna do today? I've already did it. I took a nap a little bit ago for 22 minutes because I was told that that's the optimal time before I came on this. And so, and I hope I go for a walk with my wife later today. So that will be another good one.

Bart Leger (44:29.326)
There you go. There you go. Well.

Bart Leger (44:36.174)
There you go. We've already had a sleep expert on the show and naps are very important. I know the older I get, the more important naps are. Well, Jim, thank you very much and trust you have a great day.

Jim Bontrager (44:48.883)
Well, thank you, brother. God bless.